Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

topic posted Fri, August 28, 2009 - 4:26 PM by  RareBird
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I am an INFP female and have a very unusual relationship with an INFJ male. If anyone could shed some light on his behavior I would much appreciate it. We work in the same office and have known each other for 10 years. We have a mutual attraction but my INFJ friend will not make any definite moves. He did ask me to go camping with him and his sister about seven years ago. I had already made plans for the weekend and could not attend. After that he has never ask me to do anything after work. I have ask him to go do things with me and he always refuses. But what is confusing me with this man is he flirts with me and a lot. We have this game we play with confuses me to no end. He seems to get a charge out of sneaking up on me when I am deep into my work and scares me by flipping my name tag at me. He tells me to “expect it when I least expect it”. And I do so much enjoy being noticed by this man. And I also find him looking at me from the distance. But I can’t get him to have a deep conversation for very long. Here is where I need help from other INFF’s to help me understand what is happening in this mans mind. Am I doing something or not doing something that would prevent him from pursuing a relationship beyond the flirting stage? Is the flirting all he is interested in and I should move on? Is he expecting something from me that I am not giving? Or is what we have just nothing more than a friendship and I am just reading attraction into his actions? Any insight into this unique man will be most helpful.
posted by:
RareBird
South Dakota
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  • Ed
    Ed
    offline 1

    Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

    Fri, August 28, 2009 - 4:48 PM
    Rarebird,

    Not that I do not think that you do not know who you are, but, are you 1) for sure an INFP, and 2) are you sure this man is an INFJ? INFJs are usually not flirtatious. I know because I am an INFJ male. The fact that he does not make any moves may give evidence that he is an INFJ, but that is not convincing enough. He may be an ESTP; as ESTPs are usually not very in-depth, and usually very flirtatious, and are unpredictable in their moves.

    Maybe he just does not find you attractive. I am not trying to offend you, but if he is an INFJ, he is likely picky. I know I am. Also, consider this, if he is an INFJ, maybe he is attractive to extroverts or his opposite, an ESTP, or someone else significantly opposite him. He, potentially being an INFJ, may very well intuitively know that you are an INFP, and may not be what he is looking for. Remember Rarebird, we humans in general are usually attracted to our opposites when it comes to love. In your case, this man may be an ESTP, whom is significantly opposite you.

    If you are really attracted to this man and he is an INFJ, you will have to go after him, because he will be stagnant in making any further moves;
    otherwise, you may be just getting a false reading of attraction and overthinking this.
    • Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

      Sat, August 29, 2009 - 9:22 AM
      Ed, thank you for your reply. I am 100% sure that I am an INFP and that he is INFJ. My only problem is I don’t know what is going on in his mind. I had never met a INFJ in my entire life until I met him. And to be honest he has captured my heart like no man has ever captured my heart. I have always been very good at reading people especially men but him I cannot read. And I sure don’t know if I should be the one making the moves on him. But it seems like I am going to have to be the one to do something. Because I do think he is stuck. And what I mean by flirting is not the way other men usually flirt. I have watched this man for 10 years and know that even small actions for him is really big. If it was any other man I would just put him off as just being friendly. But for this man to make some of the small moves he has made is very big for him. And after he makes small moves he seems stiff and scared like he has never flirted with a woman before. And being an INFP I can feel very strong emotions coming from him. I would really love to get a relationship going with him but I am not sure how he would take me making the moves. And what kind of moves would an INFJ man find attractive coming from a woman? I don’t want to scare him away or seem to be chasing him. What I really want is for him to chase me. And plus being an INFP I am very shy myself. And I am sure clueless on what to do next with this man.
      • Ed
        Ed
        offline 1

        Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

        Sat, August 29, 2009 - 1:37 PM
        Rarebird,

        I am going to be straight with you. This relationship probably will not work. I truly believe that there just has to be an extrovert and introvert together, and preferably opposites (i.e. ESTJ and INFP). This is because opposites complement eachother and help to improve on each other's weaknesses. But, if you really want to be with this guy, I would suggest you asking him out to somewhere safe where only you and he will be together. This means no double dates and no friends with you. He will otherwise not think you are serious. Be completely honest with him. Tell him that you like him. I know this takes a lot of courage, but trust me, if there is one thing INFJ males love in a woman, it is clear direct honesty. NO beating around the bush, no flirting. Do not be mushy, but do tell him how you truly feel. I would say something like "Look (name), I think I have known you for a while now, and I would like to get to know you better, I really like you and I think you are a good guy. If it is okay with you, would you like to go out with me sometime."

        I know I am making this sound easy, and that this is very hard for an introvert to do, but I feel you have no other choice. At least you will find out if he really likes you or not.

        Make sure he does not already have a girlfriend as well.

        That is all I got.
        • Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

          Sun, August 30, 2009 - 6:50 PM
          Well as you know. I disagree with you on the opposites attract issue, being married to an introvert myself. However, I do agree that flirting is just that...flirting. And to get anywhere with this man past the fun, games and banter you will have to shoot straight and just say how you feel. You don't have to lay it all out there but be blunt and honest. In the past I thought I was completely clueless to others intentions because I just take flirting as friendly fun and don't think past it unless the other person just says in the most plain way possible that they want to go on a date and are interested in being more than just friends. I don't know about all INFJ's but I don't ever assume that anyone is interested in anything other than friendship. My husband and I were friends before dating and he just bluntly said - " I told Mary that I no longer want to date her and I am interested in dating you, so what are you doing Saturday night? Wanna go get some Indian food? "
          Only then did I have a clue and apparently he had been flirting with me with relationship intentions for months.
          Be honest, clear and compassionate and be prepared to hear what you you may not want to know, but it will be the truth and you will have an answer.
          Good luck!
          • Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

            Mon, August 31, 2009 - 8:21 AM
            INFP's and I get along great. My best friend since childhood is an INFP. I dated one for 5 years. It's a relationship that can work fine, but it sometimes take a lot of work to keep that "spark" going. You are so much alike that things can settle into routines. Still, it makes for a very close strong bond and it's nice rarely having to explain yourself. Being understood is a good feeling.

            I have to second the advice about being direct and honest. Tell him you have been interested in him for a long time but have been nervous about approaching him. Tell him you'd like to get to know him better. Low key, no hoopla. No pressure or stress, either.

            A random thought about why he doesn't see responsive to your advances: are there any other guys in the picture? We INFJ's generally do NOT compete with other guys for a gal's affection. We figure if she isn't sure she wants us then we'll wait around until we find one who is sure. I suspect that INFJ women are the same way, although it may not be as difficult for them since men probably approach them more than women approach INFJ men. Then again, women get pretty competetive with one another, too, so it may be worse for you ladies for all I know. Like is complicated for any INFJ, male or female ;)
            • Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

              Mon, August 31, 2009 - 10:09 AM
              I totally agree with Waylon on this point.
              "We INFJ's generally do NOT compete with other guys for a gal's affection. We figure if she isn't sure she wants us then we'll wait around until we find one who is sure. I suspect that INFJ women are the same way, although it may not be as difficult for them since men probably approach them more than women approach INFJ men."

              Although just from personal experience I think most people find INFJ's ambiguous and unapproachable because we can often see through the bullshit and want the real deal. We are not obvious unless we are very sure of ourselves and not only our intention but also the intention of the other person.

              I think I could be good friends with an INFP but there would probably be issues in a romantic relationship of trying to maintain that spark and interest aside from the warm fuzzies because we would be too much alike and I would feel as though I had to be the initiator and pull the relationship to keep it progressing.

              I think if you pursue this man and relationship you should be prepared to have to step out of some of your role identifications and personality traits. You will have to step out of your box so to speak, but it's probably worth it.
              • Ed
                Ed
                offline 1

                Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

                Mon, August 31, 2009 - 4:09 PM
                Boy, everybody seems to be proving my point; an extrovert and introvert just seem to work better together. It allows for both to be themselves, generally speaking. I guess Shif, you are an exception. Although extrovert does not always equal outgoing, and introvert does not always equal shy, it is more as more often than not the extrovert will be generally more proactive (at least in an obvious way) in going after the person and the introvert will be more reactive in a potential set up for a relationship.
                • Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

                  Mon, August 31, 2009 - 7:11 PM
                  I haven't had that experience with extroverts, but I can see how other people function that way. I think I attract introverts though, which is fine by me. Extroverts in general don't make me feel special, allow me to be myself and give me the one on one time that I need to feel a deep connection. But that's just been my experience and I'm sure there is an enormous difference between my experiences and the majority of society.
                  -shrug....sigh....Ed, we will just never agree on this one, but I think we are both probably right because relationships are so individual, situational and complicated, type is only a fraction of what has to be considered.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Ed
                    Ed
                    offline 1

                    Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

                    Mon, August 31, 2009 - 7:24 PM
                    Can't really argue with you Shif. You are older and more experienced, not to mention married. I have never been in a relationship, serious or unserious, nor dated a woman, nor went to prom (I went to a homecoming once though). I guess I try to spit mad game like I know everything when I don't. However, with my experience with close friends, family, and general observation of couples, I can say that I am more often (about 90% +- 3%) that not right. I guess I am just a smart ass, or have a mad intuition, or live in a screwed up area. The only real way to know how things go is to experience them for oneself. Being an INFJ, I guess I can just feel it somehow without being there.
  • Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

    Tue, September 1, 2009 - 1:58 PM
    I appreciate every ones reply to my question. But as an INFP female, for me to make the moves would be very uncomfortable. I would have to be 100% sure this INFJ is really shy and cant make the moves himself AND his actions are really meant as an awkward attempt to get my romantic attention. To clarify the situation, I know for sure we have flirted on a romantic level in the past. And after reading more about INFJ's I have learned that I made a major mistake with him. I have used other men to get him jealous. My thoughts were if he thought he was going to lose me to another man he would step up and show more aggressive attention to me. I can now see that was wrong and most likely pushed him away. I want thoughts from other INFJ's, if you were to flip a name tag at someone of the opposite sex how would you mean the action? Is the action used to get my attention? Or is he just being friendly? He does seem to get great joy of the action but don't do it very often. Unless we are talking about work related issues he seems very scared and physically stiff. He is like this even more so after he flips the name tag at me, even though he does have the biggest smile on his face. I have to admit this man has me very confused.
    • Ed
      Ed
      offline 1

      Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

      Tue, September 1, 2009 - 5:28 PM
      If I were to flip a name tag, it is a sign of friendliness and playfullness. If I continually do it, consistently, that means I like you and would like to date you. If I do it periodically, I just like to piss you off on purpose jokingly. It does not mean I like you and want to date you. Since you said he does this once in a while, it just means to me that he has nothing to lose and seems to have lost all hope of getting you. He probably thinks you have a boyfriend or gave him signals in the past that you do not want to date him, such as using other guys to get him jealous. He therefore does this periodically just to bust your butt a little and not get you.

      My Point: He may like you and find you PHYSICALLY attractive, but feels he has no chance at you, and therefore just knows it would piss you off if he flips your name tag. He is NOT flirting. You will have to make the move.

      Remember INFJs are all or nothing.
      • Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

        Tue, September 1, 2009 - 7:23 PM
        Ed, thank you for your explanation of this guys actions. He is not flipping my name tag to piss me off. He knows I enjoy his attention very much and get great joy out of him flipping my name tag at me. I do think he is not sure of what he wants and he even told me that one day. Since I am very shy myself I cannot be the one to make the move. I do not think it to be appropriate for the female to chase after men. He has had plenty of time and conformation from me in the past to let him know I am interested in him. So since he is not sure he even wants me I will continue to date other men. I do get a lot of attention from other men. I have always gotten a lot of attention from other men but want only one very special man. I am currently dating an ISTJ and he is pursuing me pretty intensely. I just wanted to know if my INFJ friend meant more than just friends by his actions before I get serious with this other guy. I would drop this other guy (ISTJ) pretty fast for my INFJ friend. I will not take the flipping of my name tag as flirting again. I will take his actions as non flirting friendship fun. Thank you for taking the time to help me understand this confusing situation. INFJ’s are pretty special people but I have to say very hard to understand. But it looks like I will be dating an ISTJ.
        • Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

          Wed, September 2, 2009 - 6:12 AM
          Okay, I hate to be the dumbarse here, but what the heck does flipping name tags mean?

          A couple parting thoughts on the matter:

          Rarebird: "I do think he is not sure of what he wants and he even told me that one day."

          No one knows what they really want. We're just honest about that. In your case, if he did want you then he may have come to the conclusion that you are unattainable, and therefore lost interest. After all, why pine away wanting something you are never going to have?

          "Since I am very shy myself I cannot be the one to make the move."

          Then you will certainly never have him, because he probably feels the same way.

          "I do not think it to be appropriate for the female to chase after men."

          Why not? As recently as mid 19th century people used to think it was inappropriate for a woman to show her ankles in public. If a man accidently saw her ankles he was expected to propose to her in order to spare her dignity. We've come a long way since those days. Women can chase men all they want to. That way you can ensure you get the one you want instead of having to settle for whatever comes along. Might as well settle for an arranged marriage as part of a business deal for your father if you aren't going to take the bull by the horns, so to speak.

          Rarebird: "He has had plenty of time and conformation from me in the past to let him know I am interested in him."

          Okay, this is one of my soapbox issues that gets my goat every time. Many women are notorious for this stuff. Unless you very literally told him you were interested then he has no clue you are interested. Women's signals are a lot more subtle than you think, and if you have a history of bantering with one another then it's completely impossible to pick up a serious signal vs a playful signal.

          I'm reminded of the movie, "George of the Jungle". George is interested in a woman but has no idea how to pursue her, so he asks for advice from his friend, Ape (who is, well, an ape). Ape basically explains courtship procedures for gorillas, which involves lots of hooting, and running around in circles, oh, and throwing leaves into the air. George attempts this with his lady love, who is bewildered by the display. Needless to say, she is not exactly bowled over. George returns to Ape frustrated, and both are stunned that this surefire technique didn't work. While musing over what went wrong (in my favorite line from the movie), Ape looks at George critically and asks, "Did you throw the leaves?"

          Anyway, the moral of the story is that if you want the guy you've gotta suck up your pride and go "git 'im". Yes, it's awkward at first, but since you already have a casual relationship it's as easy as asking if he'd like to go see a movie or hang out after work sometime. Once you've got him one-on-one alone with you then yo ucan talk about your childhoods, or who your favorite superheroes are, or your favorite books, or whatever. INFJ's are good at the one-on-one stuff. Things would likely progress naturally from there.

          And you'll have to stop throwing leaves. No guy understands that stuff. The best advice I ever gave my sister was to just tell her boyfriends what she wanted instead of making them read her mind and guess. Now, lo and behold, she's happily married and gets everything she wants. Most guys, if we know what the heck you want from us, are happy to accomodate.

          Rarebird: "I would drop this other guy (ISTJ) pretty fast for my INFJ friend."

          Man, what an emotional roller coaster. I was feeling sorry for the INFJ guy because he didn't stand a chance, now I feel sorry for the ISTJ guy because he's a consolation prize ;) All joking aside, I had a girlfriend actually tell me that once, except I was the guy who would have been dropped. Broke my heart into tiny little pieces and took me years to get over. Please never actually say that to anyone, even if it's true.

          The reason I take this subject so seriously is because I have a very close friend who is an ENFJ. She and I have been friends since high school, and I always had a crush on her. However, she was surrounded by guys, so I never made more than a token effort to win her overr her and she never expressed anything other than friendly interest towards me. We never dated, though we hung out all the time. Now, 15 years later it turns out she did have a crush on me, too, but she never told me that (she expected me to understand subtle signs like what kind of shoes or jewelry she was wearing, for cryin' out loud). Who knows what might have happened there? But we'll never find out, beause we've both moved on in life.

          Basically, my mottoe is to tryto live life without any regrets. Sometimes that means that I don't do things that I would regret later, but sometimes it means that I make myself do things that I might regret if I didn't do them. In this case, what would you regret more in 10 years? Going through the awkwardness of making a "first move" ? Or not taking a chance on someone? Then again, if you go with one guy you may not be able to go with the other, and since I don't know any of the people involved here I can't make a recommendation there. You'll have to search your feelings and decide for yourself what it best for you.
          • Ed
            Ed
            offline 1

            Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

            Wed, September 2, 2009 - 6:32 AM
            Waylon, you make great points. You are on the ball.

            Rarebird, I have a suggestion. Text this man saying you like him when you are not at work, in the privacy of your home. It is much easier to say something away from this man's face than right to him. This is not ideal nor sincere, but it is a start. Ask him out over texting, then confirm it with him at work the next day.

            This will only work if you have his number and texting of course. This may sound like a high school way of doing things, but try it. He may feel comfortable too, considering he will not have to be nervous with you right there nor with anyone else around.

            Tell him how you feel.

            Or better yet, go old fashion and write him a love letter. He may take it as a joke, but he might find it cute and funny, maybe even legit. I would be flattered. Don't get too mushy though.

            All for now.
  • Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

    Wed, September 2, 2009 - 8:13 AM
    This will never work, just accept it. You want him to behave like someone he is not and you are not willing to come out of role constraints and you want someone obvious and assertive. Sounds like you should stick with the guy you are dating even though I feel sorry for him that you are so casual with his feelings, or seek an ES type that can pursue you and give you more than obvious monkey man signals that he wants you.
    As an INFJ I can say that if you used men to try to make him jealous and more assertive you no longer have a chance in hell. You are also judged now, even if he is flipping your name tag. I loose all respect for that behavior and for the most part I can say INFJ's appreciate clear open honesty above all else. If you want him you will have to step out of your box, open yourself up and explain yourself as you have done here. Sounds like you are playing games and most INFJ's don't do that with relationships.
    Doesn't sound like he will be able to give you what you want and this will all end in a pile of confusion and frustration.
  • Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

    Wed, September 2, 2009 - 9:08 AM
    I guess I did come off sounding pretty crude to the ISTJ guy. But you have to understand I have known the ISTJ guy for two months. We are dating but we are not even exclusive yet. I have known the INFJ guy for 10 years and I know the type of person he is. There is a large difference in the time for my feelings to develop. And it takes me a very very long time for romantic feelings to develop. That is why I would go with the INFJ guy. The ISTJ guy does make me feel valued and wanted but will need more time for feeling to develop. It does appear that if I want the INFJ guy I am going to have to do the work. But if I am the one that does the pursuing I am sure I am not going to feel like the INFJ guy even wants me. I guess I have always been the one pursued by men and it just feels awkward for me to even think about pursuing a man. And from other post it appears the INFJ guy is just having some friendly fun with me. He does not mean his attentions as romantic.

    By the way how do INFJ's show romantic attention? I may need to ask this question in a new thread.
    • Ed
      Ed
      offline 1

      Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

      Wed, September 2, 2009 - 10:53 AM
      Boy, you are a rarebird, Rarebird.

      I am going to have to agree with Shif, go for an Extrovert-Sensor. Go for an ESTJ.

      As far as your question regarding INFJs and romance, I can't really help you much since I have never been in a romantic relationship. BUT, if I were, I would do something my partner likes, showing unselfishness. The romance would just happen, I would could not make it happen. The partner would initiate it. The idea of "romance" for an INFJ I think is very untraditional. As an INFJ, I would show romantic attention by just listening to my partner, hearing every word, and just sticking by her side, letting her do the work. Of course, this requires a woman of action for me (i.e. an ESTP). If the girl gets playful, I will be playful, if the partner keeps talking to me while I am trying to work, I will listen, and work until 5:00am in the morning if I have to.

      The point is: An INFJ shows romantic attention by being honest with their partner, and listening and going along with his/her partner to places no matter how much he or she may not like it. It is about just spending more time with the person, getting to know the person, not worrying about anything else.
      • Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

        Wed, September 2, 2009 - 2:51 PM
        Ed, you are just as cute and adorable was my INFJ friend. Your personality seems to match my INFJ almost to a tee. You gave me the exact answer that I was looking for. You said you "would could not make" a relationship happen. I believe that is what is going on with my INFJ friend. To tell you the truth I do not think you INFJ men do justice to yourselves by not pursuing a woman you want. I think you are missing many opportunities for happiness by not pursuing us. And as for a ESTJ man. NO THANK YOU! I do not like extraverts. They exhaust me to no end. I had rather have an introvert so we can just not say anything. I prefer to have in intuitive so when we do speak to each other we are talking on the deep level. I would also not prefer a thinker since I am extremely emotional myself. And I would require a man to take great care of my sensitive emotions. Well thanks everyone for all your answers. I know now my INFJ friend just would not or could not pursue me even if he was madly in love with me. Now I just have to decide if I want to risk the pain of rejection by chasing him. To chase him would be something very difficult for me. So don't know what the future is going to hold for us.

        And yes, I am a Rare Bird. I not only am an INFP which is rare but I have had life experiences that make me even more different. There is only one me and there are no others that come close to being me, even other INFP's.
        • Ed
          Ed
          offline 1

          Re: Love Puzzle - Please help me solve it

          Wed, September 2, 2009 - 5:34 PM
          I agree, I am cute and adorable. I am also right.

          I think you need an ESTJ to balance you out.

          Just remember one thing Rarebird, I hear a lot about what you want. Make sure you are unselfish and give back. You get what you give.

          Hope all goes well.

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